Great question, but not easy to answer.

So I ran a discussion to see how Excel people would answer the question. Their responses are below.

Question: I see sites where someone with 2 to 3 years Excel experience calls themselves an Excel Expert. These are often people that use Excel in their daily duties, but that may not be daily development experience. They may simple be using Excel files either built be themselves or by someone else, but they are not making changes to the structure of the file. Are they not possibly just power users, if even that? What do you think?

How much time, and what aspects of Excel does someone need to posses before they can call themselves an Excel Expert?

Comment: • LOL I think it is funny myself. Excel is such a broad tool that I wonder if anyone at Microsoft is even a Master of it all. Too bad people didn't breakdown their expertness by industry/ business role or level of development. I still run into recent MBA's at my work who look at me weird when I show them a pivot table.

Comment: • I think it is relative, Christopher. I dare to call myself an expert anywhere within my business environment, but I am hesitant to use this word when I am together with some of my fellow Excel MVPs :D ;) I think that a true Excel guru does not have to "think" if he's a guru or not, because we all know him :)

Comment: • Agree with all of the above. And I don't get pivot tables either. However, I'd add that a true expert would definitely know when someone is doing something in Word that should be in Excel, and something is done in Excel that should really be done in Access.

Comment • Good point, ---. To that same point, I think that someone is an expert once they can evolve original requests into what the client actually wants. For example, if a client requests an "Excel database" (one of my most hated phrases) for tracking sales leads for multiple sales people, I already know they can probably do better with a properly normalized Access database. 'm not sure if there's really a time limit because everyone learns things at a different pace. In one of my jobs I was promoted to Senior Developer within 8 months (partly) because of my VBA knowledge, while others weren't anywhere near my skill level for almost two years. It's foolish to say that someone will be an Excel expert after X years of experience, in my opinion, unless you know how in-depth their experience has been.

Comment • We are getting some good points here. I think if you can solve someone's Excel problem over the phone while driving your car you may in fact be an expert. Being able to solve a problem without seeing the file shows advanced skills. So let's take it a step further, what is the formula you use most in Excel?

Comment • I use Vlookups and SumIfs the most when building an Excel that the user will be able to easily alter. I want the user to be able to understand the file and to easily alter it as their needs change.

Comment • Ifs and string altering formulas followed by vlookup. I use tables an pivottables the most.

Comment • nested ifs, vlookups, countif, and text formatting strings all impress people, but I'm not sure that makes you an expert. Going back to Laura's point, I am not impressed if someone does something in Excel that should be done in Access, even if they've used complex formulas. You have to know the proper tool for the job. I'm most impressed with an excel sheet if it's easy to understand and modify, and if it's structured so that itself checks for input errors

Comment: • I think we would all agree with that. But if the client wants excel you have to use excel and make it work like access. I could make a perfect access application but if the client doesn't trust it because its in access than I didn't do my job.

Comment: • "I am not impressed if someone does something in Excel that should be done in Access, even if they've used complex formulas. You have to know the proper tool for the job." I completely agree, Maura. Twisting and manipulating a chicken until it quacks like a duck does not make it a duck - it just makes an angry, confused chicken.

"But if the client wants excel you have to use excel and make it work like access."

I strongly disagree because, again, Excel is not a database. If the client is against using Access I would try to determine why. Have they never used Access before and are afraid it will take too long to learn? Did they have a bad experience with someone who didn't understand how to properly normalize database tables and/or created a confusing user interface? Do they not have a license to install the full version? In most instances it's a need to educate a client - not just bend to their will. I'll even develop a mock-up for them to try which, in almost all instances, will change their mind. After all, if you're an "expert" and not just a power user, then show that they hired you for your expertise.

Although there are certain instances where Excel is a better tool (especially for financial data and reporting), I would never use Excel as a replacement for a true database unless my client had a very, very good reason.

Comment: The major advantages of using Excel instead of Access for a database app have nothing to do with the functionality. I consider Excel to be more portable than Access, assuming Access is running off a centralized database, and probably most importantly from the client side, better understood. Excel could be a short term solution where Access is better for on-going flexibility. For those of you with external clients, I can see the challenge when you are working in a company where quite a few people know Excel but none know Access. I often have to put the information back in Excel for analysis - those who see the data never know that Access was the reason I could get it to them so quickly and in a consistent format.

Comment: I agree commentor but I am not a consultant and only have internal customers, who are very slow to convert to access. I know that in the basics of that statement I am a consultant. But have an outside party work on a project for a manager brings a different approach and openness by the manager. Your a consultant you must know what you are talking about, where I have to slowly, slowly prove there is a better way. Coupled with a relative love hate relationship with my internal IT department makes my life pretty interesting. :)

But I do believe and please correct me if wrong, the reason the Excel team continues to add db like functionality to Excel is for this very reason, their customers want and demand it. Regardless of right or wrong. Youll probably freak but our companies production schedule is completely run off an excel workbook with the most nested ifs and vlookups I have seen or at least created myself. 5mb worth. Either way I created as requested, they love it and have told the company they wouldn't trade it for the 200k third party demand planning solution that purchasing uses for new products.

Now with that said, I will move them evantually to access as there are many things missing that could be added and it would run much faster. But to get them to even get this far has taken three years. :)

Comment • I assume in the instance you described having a single-user system (that is, only one user can enter/edit data at a time) fits the company's requirements? Most of my gigs require multi-user access, for which Access is a much better tool. I also hope that the file(s) are backed-up regularly in case they become corrupted, are deleted, or are incorrectly/maliciously modified. It's great that you were able to build a system in Excel that that successfully and efficiently fulfills a requirement, and I certainly understand moving non-tech people to using a tech solution. Still, I think the root problem is educating clients on what can (and should) be done in a proper relational database application - even if that application ends up outputting data into Excel. Going back to Maura's point, you have to know the proper tool for the job, which is different in every scenario.

Comment • Sorry I have just come in late just signed on to this group. I was of the understanding that the term expert is relative to the audience - ie the person who knows the most out of a group, and this can be ever expanding. The debate between Access and Excel seems to miss one thing, cost and control. I worked for a global pharmaceutical giant, and it was corporate policy to severely restrict Access cost was one, due to license and administration requirements, and secondly being in a heavily regulated environment there was an issue with numerous uncontrolled non validated databases (the regulators did not like Access) which also took up a lot of server memory leaving less efficient servers. So Excel was extensively used outside the ERP systems. I had to get creative in Excel, an example, I managed to get a multiuser Excel VBA application for lab batch testing working, it had the potential to have 50 simultaneous users, and it didn't fall over once (all the IT experts told me it wouldnt work - probably rode my luck a bit), it was a good development model and achieved a culture change. This was one of many applications that would not normally be viewed as Excel friendly, but they worked and fulfilled the requirement, and that is the ultimate aim, and the measure of success, so the debate between Access and Excel really doesn't come into it when the restrictions are placed by a regulatory body.

Comment • Hi All, first time poster here. I love this discussion. I'm an Excel expert in every sense of the word, but not because I'm the best pure coder. I am at the level because of the solutions I can provide across the entire VBA desktop.

I would not say a person is an expert at Excel if they don't have nearly equal skills with Access (or vise versa) at the same high level. A true expert will know how to position the solution with the right application. A true expert will know when it's really necessary to recommend a new backend port or if it's best left in it's native application.

I was recently and reluctantly hired by a company to do an Access port to SQL 2005. I later discovered why the were reluctant. Their company expert (very large telecom btw) at the interview was hoping to hear me say "that Access was much more forgiving than SQL." Since I was willing to be onsite for this assignment I got the offer, not because I eased his mind at the time.

Comment • Excel is not a 'relational' database, it can be used as a sequential database and in fact has it's own proprietary backend that does not actually reside in the application once it is created, nor can it be read by any other application. It was useful at times when Excel had the low row count limitations. You'd never even consider it now.

Comment • When Excel is used as a front end, it can be very effective in a multi-user situation. The limit to user count is due in part to the record locking methods used. I wrote a multi-user application for the scheduling center of a national moving company. It wasn't possible to meet their time line for the deliverable using Access in this case, but that was in the late 90's. Access has grown up since then.

Good topic, this is a fun read.

Comment • I find the debate between Excel and Access rather ironic, in that most of my work consists of Excel being used for a front end data analysis module, and Access is the back end for Excel and the front end for Oracle. Data is extracted from Oracle into Access, where a multitude of queries are run. The data from these quereies are then pulled into my excel dashboards through DAO, (queried in VBA to filter only the date ranges specified in Excel.)

In short, I couldn't imagine my job with ONLY Excel, or ONLY Access. To me they are a tightly bonded team.

As for an Excel "Expert"... I have 14 years experience with Excel and Access, have passed the "Expert" cert (which, IMHO, could have be a bit more challenging to receive the "Expert" title...) and I still try to learn something new each and every day. The key is to never stop learning.

Comment • In the 90's I think one could argue that Excel was typically used as a standalone solution. After Access 2000 came along and the VBE finally caught up with Excel it became easy for Excel VBA developers to encourage the use of each for better solutions. Now, the process has evolved to the point I call myself a VBA/SQL Integrator because both Excel and Access front-end SQL for business that can hire me.

Does anyone find it a bit frustrating that DICE, Monster and Career Building don't have a specific category for VBA Specialists or Desktop Developers? Still lots of confusion about the value of a true VBA developer over a VB dev. They are not the same animal.

Comment • I've found that a power user knows what the program can do. An expert knows (with certainty) what the program can't do.

Comment • I agree with --- on his comment about Monster etc, I do believe its based on Prestige, Excel VBA doesn't appear in the IT sector to have the same level of prestige attached to it as things like SAP, Oracle or operating platform and network specialists, and yet it is such a widely used software, and I know of a lot of firms that run their business predominantely with Excel. At the end of the day does it matter whether you are called an expert or not, provided you deliver to the customers satisfaction, they will keep coming back, as they ultimately decide the expert status.

Comment • I know that people want to be "experts" but it seems to me that the label can certainly be arbitrary. Someone completing a beginner's class in Excel might call themselves an expert and depending on their intended use they may be.

On the other hand one could say that he or she has 20 years of Excel experience and as such might refer to him or her self as an expert when the truth is that they actually have 1-year's experience 20 times and wouldn't know a vlookup from a pivot table or a hlookup.

Then there are those who hesitate to call themselves experts since doing so sets an expectation that may be hard to live up to.

Finally, concerning the word "expert" is it really anything but a "former pert"?

I honestly prefer and have pushed for the term "subject matter resource" rather than the fully qualified "subject matter expert." This allows a person to have `a reasonable mastery of a topic while not having to have every solution to every problem at the tips of their phabulous phlying phalanges. This person knows enough to be able to say "I don't know but I can find out or figure it out and get back to you." And then the do so.

Thus endth my 02 cents,

Comment • The topic is "What makes someone an Excel expert?", not what title we refer to ourselves. Jeff is certainly addressing the nature of folks calling themselves experts with questionable credentials. If pressed I will just say I'm a Senior or Journeyman Excel developer. I fully agree with Jeff that referring to one's self as an Expert can corner you into unforeseen expectations. Since I've mentored a number of developers over the years I like the 'picture' that Senior/Journeyman/Apprentice paints and I think hiring managers more easily understand this model.

Comment • It's difficult to be an excel expert because always there are some formula or option that you never use also sometimes you can do the same thing in different way.

Comment • I have often had to smile when I hear someone say they are an expert or power user then ask a very basic question, like how to format as currency. There is so much that Excel can do and most only use a very small portion of it.

Comment • In my view an expert should be able to train others to their requirements, responding to their issues not just following a course schedule.

I agree with the comment that it depends who I am with and I may not consider myself the expert amongst other expert users.

My favourite functions are if and sumif but these can be very useful combines with Lookups and Isblank.

Comment • I think it is possible for someone who only has 2 to 3 years of Excel experience to become an "expert". Expert is such a general term, it can have different definition depending on the background or the field. For IT, expert may mean someone who can utilize Excel VBA and provide a solution in the shortest amount of time or simply develop a tool to improve overall efficiency. Versus in the Accounting and Financing industry, an expert can be simply defined as someone who can utilize Excel function and provide different business solutions or simply develop a financial model that can give managers or executive with the information they need to make decisions.

Comment • Good points Jie. I am certainly NOT an expert at pure spreadsheet development as it pertains to formula usage. I've seen actuaries produce statistical cell formulas that give me headaches. Given the sample of that same formula however, I can inject it into VBA code and create variations of it and use it in ways they couldn't even conceive.

It's good to point out that Expert VBA Development does not suggest Expert Analytical Spreadsheet (formula) development.

Comment • I agree with Jay and Jie. My reports travel the route of extract data via SQL, into XLS, then ACCESS and then back out into XLS for presentation. But, the XLS expert, I feel, is comfortable with two elements: macros and VBA. I know macros, and had a course in VBA (too) long ago. The power in VBA is the true power of XLS. ACCESS, to me, is the perfect meld of softare and function, though, and solves many problmes and links I could not attain otherwise. But, to automate and save time is key, when one has those month-end or payroll data deadlines (OK, we know there are also daily and quarterly and weekly deadlines too!) The more tools we have, the better euqipped we are to produce truly meaningful reports.

It's good to point out that Expert VBA Development does not suggest Expert Analytical Spreadsheet (formula) development.

Comment • I have been an Excel user for many years, and coming from a VB6 programming background have a really good handle on VBA. Having said this I do not think of myself as an expert. I do, though, have some criterion that may be used to make a somewhat subjective determination:

* Length of time using the product. What versions? If you are a contractor, or work in an office where they are in the process of upgrading you have to be proficient in more that one.

* Breadth of usage. I have grown used to VLOOKUP for matching between lists. I have done it often, and use it along with a variety of other workbook functions. But how many difference function do I know and use. Do I know when to use VLOOKUP vs MATCH for example. Am I able to suggest that best Excel tools to a co-worker or boss to achieve the best results.

* Certification. Of course some people test better than others, but what this tells one is that the person has taken the time to concentrate on the subject, and presumably has been exposed during training to a broad range of functions and uses.

* How proficient is one at being able to know when a macro is appropriate, how to optimize a recorded macro, and various algorithms for doing various tasks in a programming language.

* The ability to translate a business need into a workable Excel-based solution, as well as knowing when Excel may not be the best option. And finally;

* The ability, and patience, to shows others tips and tricks or provide debugging help. I helped my boss with sorting numbers with dashes, by adding a column with the LEN() function and then sorting by the length first. She seemed impatient until, that is, the results was exactly what she wanted.

These a some of the things one could take into account before making a determination as to ones Excel 'chops'. I would hesitate to call myself an expert, and have a certain amount of respect for those I think may be

Comment • I think we have blurred the line between an Excel expert and an Access issue. Remember that Excel is a spreadsheet that has morphed toward the Access database spectrum at Microsoft developers whims. I think their object was to achieve a vertical product line and secure their role in the market place. Excel has its place in the business world and that is the analysis of numbers, not as a full blown database. Access has no features other than the ability to create functions for numeral manipulation in relation to Excel. What makes someone an expert is simply being able to proficiently use the features of Excel to produce a meaningful document for the end user. I would add that a high lever user would go the extra step and document their work for the next user to understand and grow the spreadsheet. I have used excel for over 15 years and I always find a new feature or use from even a new user and vice versa. I do think that too many companies utilize complex spreadsheets that produce no tangible result set other than to slow down a server, desktop by not being properly designed with the developer mentality. But that means a deeper understanding of resources and constraints, whether it is software, hardware and storage capacity.

Comment • good point about the VBA specialist. A lot of my work uses VBA in both Excel and Access, and many people just don't get it. I find myself having to explain how I have worked to give clients what they want.

How many ads ask for an "Excel expert; must be able to do VLOOKUP and pivot tables" ?? When neither the client nor the recruiter knows what an expert looks like, it can be hard to make yourself stand out.

Re the "expert" tag; ---, great comment. I'd also add that a true expert knows several different ways to solve the same business issue/problem, and can articulate the reasons for using one over the other *and* deliver the solution.

Comment • GI second that. I always chuckle to myself when asked if I'm an advanced excel user and then they follow with "know pivot tables and vlookup"

Comment • Hi...This discussion looks interesting...as per my knowledge of excel in last 6 years...if you know how to get the data from diff systems...e.g. BMC Remedy, BO, SAP or any ERP system... and then possibly convert into a one sheet withe all diff formulas...and then create a pivot and get the desired result....and if this is not so easy then create a VBA macro so your ultimate goal is achieved which is the client requirement (m assuming all the results in Excel only) ... then you can at least call them as a Expert one..... Excel MVP's are exception for this as they are like DON in this field...

Comment •I think you have to be able to code in VBA to be an Excel/Access expert. Once you can, and you can harness the power of the two working in unison you can come up with some pretty amazing stuff and I think most users would consider you an expert. Depends on who you are trying to impress!

I've worked for a number of different clients now who still suffer from cottage industries of excel users who still hadnt been introduced to automation and the savings in time and the increase in accuracy of MI (Management Information). Understandably many of those users would also consider themselves experts, as they have been doing it that way for years.